To Cleric or not to Cleric

 My impulse so far has been to remove the cleric, shifting some of its magic to the Magic-User and make turn undead doable by anyone (essentially with in-fiction caveats/requirements).

A compelling argument was put forth on the ClericsWearRingmail discord (CWR blog link) about keeping Clerics in a Sword and Sorcery style setting, citing THIS blog post (vyrhex blog).

I must say, I do enjoy this interpretation, but for my currently floating around ideas on religion and magic in Tolras I am still not sure that the Cleric fits for me.

I found THIS post on the Melancholies and Mirth blog that, while not explicitly talking about swords and sorcery, I feel fits in/helps contextualize the Cleric. Not sure if it is way off topic here but it is a great post nonetheless.

There is also this compelling argument and direct quote from ClericsWearRingmail on the discord:

"Evil clerics are sword and sorcery AF"     

I find myself returning to some of my original inspirational materials:

-the Age of Conan supplement by Jason Vey (found HERE)

"All magic users in the Hyborian age, both scholarly (arcane) and clerical, are sorcerers...."

-THIS blog post by Roles, Rules, and Rolls

"Being a priest is not a character class but a social occupation, like being a mercenary or merchant. Priests in a religion, or those pretending to be priests, wear distinctive garb and often study sorceries related to their deity's interests."

-THIS blog post by Akratic Wizardry

"Magicians may be benevolent witches, reclusive shamans, eccentric sages, enigmatic priests, malevolent necromancers, or megalomaniacal sorcerers – their exact nature depends on their background, goals, spells, and sanity.

There is no longer any division between ‘cleric’ and ‘magic-user’ spells......Magicians of any focus who are associated with a cult or religious order might be called priests, seers, or acolytes."

-Seven Voyages of Zylarthen by Oaks Spalding (Save versus All Wands)

    Thief in place of Cleric, combined spell list, anybody can Turn Undead, etc.

-THIS four part series on polytheism that I really liked as far as inspiration goes. (A collection of unmitigated pedantry blog)

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I think that for the feel I am personally going for in Tolras, I will continue on the course of tossing the Cleric as a class. I make no claim that what I am doing is "pure" swords and sorcery, merely inspired by. (not that anyone can agree fully on what swords and sorcery means). I'm currently flirting with the idea that anyone may placate, venerate, and make sacrifice to a lawful god and have the ability to turn undead (with proper holy symbol) or to just not have turning at all. I think with the material that Tolras is inspired by, it just makes sense for me.

ClericsWearRingmails Ash Coast campaign that I play in is sword and sorcery inspired just as much as what I am working on. The interpretation described in the vyrhex blog post is also in the same boat. I do not subscribe to a monolithic definition of Sword & Sorcery where it comes to what is essentially setting details. It's just a feel man.

A thorn in my side remains though, as I was recently asked a question that throws a wrench into all my tinkerings and ideas.

If there are no Clerics, who will wear ringmail?

Edit 6/25/23: lol Clerics are in, all this waffling to come back to center.

Tolras - Death and dying and stuff

working rules

0 HP, INCAPACITATION, AND DEATH

-PCs reduced to 0 (or negative) hp are rendered unconscious or otherwise incapacitated.

-PCs reduced to -10 hp are dead (thanks AD&D)

-PCs reduced to negative hp lose 1hp per round of combat until "stabilized" by another PC

        (working idea being get to dying PC and spend a round pattn' poopers)

-Stabilized PCs stop losing hp but remain incapacitated.

"THE POWER OF WINE"

-per the Age of Conan supplement by Jason Cone (www.grey-elf.com)

        (1d6/level/day "healing" by way of spirituous liquors)

-PCs at 0 or negative hp may not benefit from this

NATURAL HEALING/REST

-PCs at or above 0 hp recover hp at a rate of 1d6/level/day of complete rest

-PCs with negative hp recover hp at a rate of 1 hp per week of complete rest until they reach 0, at which the faster healing starts.

I like this combination of ideas here for rest, get back in the action quicker if you didn't get really stomped on, negative hp rest as a high abstraction of taking wounds/wound recovery.

MAGICAL HEALING/POTIONS

-healing by magical spell or potion is the only method by which PCs may be returned to fighting shape if they hit 0 or negatives while on an adventure. this stuff will be pretttttty rare.

Tolras - OD&D weapon damage

 Currently floating this idea for weapon damage, slight expansion on 2d6 take highest roll found in Philotomy's Musings (www.grey-elf.com) and a hundred other places. I like it, slick way to do "variable" weapon damage without actually doing variable weapon damage.

One handed weapons deal 1d6 damage

One handed weapons (that CAN be wielded in two hands), wielded in two hands deal 2d6 take highest damage. (otherwise they just do the regular 1d6).

Two handed weapons ( translation: "devastating" polearms in Tolras) deal 3d6 take highest damage

1d6:standard 1-6 chance for all

(From Anydice.com)

2d6 take highest:

1    2.78%

2    8.33%

3    13.89%

4    19.44%

5    25%

6    30.56%

3d6 take highest:

1    .46%

2    3.24%

3    8.80%

4    17.13%

5    28.24%

6    42.13%

Lances and Pikes would not be included in this scheme, as they already have special rules in OD&D that govern them just fine for my tastes and desires.

I like it on the surface. Does the whole "do I use a shield for more defense or eschew the shield for higher-on-average damage" thing. This is at least the basis, at least giving the choice of hand usage. Now I just need to settle on how I want to make the different types of weapons matter. There's pretty much two choices for me right now- a Chainmail esque table for the d20, or simplistic bonus/penalty by type. I waffle back and forth a lot but I think I am going to concentrate on simplistic modifiers for now.

Tolras - OD&D weapons

 For Tolras I want a pseudo bronze age/early iron age/primitive aesthetic, and part of achieving this is going to be shown through the weaponry available to characters.

That means adding/removing/changing the name of things as OD&D is fairly decidedly medieval. Changes are all very subjective I might add, I will be ignoring any commentary of the WeLl AcKcHuLy nature.

My end goal is, to some extent or another, have weapon choice be meaningful and for there to be tradeoffs. This post is mostly for aesthetics and getting a rough idea of what I might could do.

Melee weapons first:

The list of melee weapons in the 3LBB is as follows:

Dagger

Hand Axe

Mace

Sword

Battle Axe

Morning Star

Flail

Spear

Pole Arm

Halberd

Two Handed Sword

Lance

Pike

The first thing I want to tackle is two handed swords, pole arms, and halberds. (What I am going to consider "devastating" weapons, this is not a mechanic just a thought category)

Spears aside, the main types of "pole weapon" found in the historical periods I am drawing inspiration from are a form of Halberd and the two handed Falx (run Romans, run). For game purposes, I am going to divorce "polearms" from the ability to attack from the second rank, giving that only to spears. "polearms" in Tolras are going to be the class of weapons meaning "holy shit that warrior is going to cleave the fuck out of me with that big two handed sword/axe on a stick."

The second thing I want to tackle is Morning Stars and Flails. In my mind, these names heavily evoke a medieval aesthetic, and I am just going to essentially merge them or remove and replace them with the "War Club."  As it turns out, the entry for Cavemen in Monsters & Treasure supports me in this, they wield "weapons equivalent to morning stars." Neat.

Related, the "Mace" is quite in line with the aesthetic of what I am going for, but I want Clubs in there too. Clubs historically have throwable variants, and "Mace" just doesn't elicit that visual for me, so at the very least the Mace entry is going to change to Club/Mace. I'm not going for 6000 weapon varieties each with specific qualities, I am quite fine lumping things together into types that are close enough for the sake of ease and simplicity.

Third are outright additions to the list. Short Sword and Javelin.

For me, I'd have a hard time lumping Dagger/Short Sword together and Sword/Short Sword together I think. They were so ubiquitous and separate from longer swords during the periods I am inspired by, though I wonder if I don't get too in the weeds with how I end up doing combat, perhaps Sword/Short Sword isn't that bad. idk.

Got to have Javelins, there were very much around and widely used, and not just for throwing. They were very capable of being used toe to toe if you needed to, so I will list them under Melee Weapons and they will have thrown ranges and all that like the regular spear.

New working melee weapon list for Tolras as follows:

Dagger

Short Sword

Hand Axe

Club / Mace

Javelin

Sword

Battle Axe

War Club

Spear

Polearm (Halberd / Falx)

Lance

Pike

I like it.

Melee (Thrown)

Dagger

Hand Axe

Club

Javelin

Spear

Now for Missile Weapons, list from the 3LBB as follows:

Short Bow

Long Bow

Composite Bow

Light Crossbow

Heavy Crossbow

Looks good, just add the Sling and we are good to go, all this stuff was around.

***Special weapons/items for consideration that probably won't be governed by standard opps and that I don't care to have fleshed out at the moment or necessarily available to PCs at chargen to begin with so who cares.***

(knee jerk/impulse/not thought out thoughts in brackets, theres probably simple mechanics for all this stuff in AD&D or something, I just don't care to look at the moment and am spitballing.)

Blowgun (not deal damage, or only 1 damage, delivers poisons)

Net  (no damage, save to avoid like a trap?)

Bolas (no damage, save to avoid like a trap?)

Atlatl (increase the range of javelins)

Alrighty that's it for the general aesthetic direction I'm pulling towards.

*Self Notes: mechanical considerations.

        -Important to maintain AC as type, not "how hard to hit" (dex will not modify AC)

        -d6 damage, probably do some form of 2d6 take higher for some stuff

        -some form of weapon type vs AC, either in table form a la SVoZ or "simpler" general bonuses/penalties.

OD&D - Tolras thought experiment.

 Been waffling back and forth on different aspects of Tolras and how I want to do things.

Thought experiment is thus: going through M&M again, what are the absolute minimum amount of changes I need to make to reflect my idea of  Tolras. What follows are the scribblings:

-No elves, dwarves, halflings, orcs, etc.

-No Cleric/clerical magic/turn undead.

-The simple 0hp/death+dying rules I have written out.

-Remove morning star, flail, two handed sword.

            -Add short sword, javelin, war club(takes the place of morning star + flail.

-Add super simple carousing, sacrifice, funeral XP rules.

-Defined combat flow (a la philotomy's musings)

Reckon I can get to playing now huh?